So, there has been this video floating around youtube called: Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus. Here is the link...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY
Today I came across a response called: Why I Love Religion and I Love Jesus. Here is the Link...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_tC4fv6FE&feature=related
I would love your thoughts as you watch both. Please engage the discussion below.
First, Aaron, I can't believe this video has gotten this much attention (the first one). I saw it, liked it and didn't think too much about it. I actually had to do research about why church folks were up in arms about it.
ReplyDeleteSix years ago I stepped out of the Ivory Tower, and left the bubble of being a pastor. My perspective on the church has changed drastically; my commitment to God has not.
When it comes to church, there are clearly insiders and outsiders. The one who hates religion is speaking from an outsider’s perspective. The one who loves religion speaks from an insider's. Unfortunately, many who are on the inside will never understand what this young man is trying to communicate.
I think that we can go around and around about this. But when it really comes down to it, Jesus laid down his life to changes our hearts. The Holy Spirit leads us to worship and abide in God the Father. Sometimes we do things because we are compelled and passionate, but is it wrong to follow God's will when we don't particularly feel like it? I think that they are both right.
ReplyDeleteWe are saved by grace, and then expected to live up to the things that God lays down in our paths. We judge what is good not only by our spirit, bu through the teaching of the Bible. There are rules, with Grace. Our biggest rule is to follow Him, we follow him by loving him with all of our heart mind and strength, and loving others as ourselves.
I read recently (In Crazy Love, by Francis Chan) That Christians are like manure. When you spread them out they help things to grow better, but when you leave them in a pile they stink horribly.
Mike, thanks for your input. In all honesty, I am of a similar opinion as you are concerning how much attention that this has gotten. But I would also say that the idea bares discussion. I think it may have hit a chord that has a lot of people thinking. I am just wondering if we can see Jesus separate from community at all. Personally, I don't believe that we can. And I see the scripture as pretty clear about the fact that there are parts of Jesus that we cannot experience outside of community. Which leads to the conclusion that we are going to have to be in some sort of relational subset in order to see Jesus to His fullest potential and that being said, I don't see how we can be void of religious practice even if those practices are held loosely. So, religion and Jesus are inseparably tied in that sense.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I am often surprised at the level of what I would see as judgmentalism by those who are condemning judgmentalism. That has always eluded resolution in my mind. Anyway, Just some further thoughts.
I guess I didn't view the author's intentions as abandoning community...but the religious dogmatic institutions many churches have become. I saw it in the same light as Jesus not wanting to abandon the Law but wanting to see it purged of man-made additions and ultimately fulfilled.
ReplyDeleteI am with you Aaron, I don't think we can have much of a relationship with Jesus outside of relationships with others. The reasons are numerous, but I think the bottom line is that God created us in the context of needing others. Marriages, Families, Nations, Churches. If I'm not mistaken, these were all God's ideas in the first place.
So then, I think where we go wrong is when we leave God out of our marriages, families, nations, and dare I say churches. That last one sounds funny, but I think it happens slowly over time. It happens when we hold on too tightly to the things that our religious practice has become instead of the one whom is the focus of the activity.
Lest we talk in theory, my church seems to be a growing, healthy church. It recently completed a $5 Million expansion to it's facilities. It's useful, practical, tasteful and by no means extravagant. And yet the price tag still gets me because our church would never commit to $5 Million to help families hit hardest by the housing and job markets. I just can't see it ever happening. Not that I have suggested it, nor am I suggesting we do such a thing. It's just a thought I can't let go of. Is it our religious activities that suggests we need bigger and bigger buildings or is our focus on God working in our lives? I don't know.
I'm not questioning decisions or nit picking. I am not against buildings. I'm just asking the question. Thanks for the forum.
And by the way, I love the manure quote. :-)
My connection to community, which upon re-reading my post I found not too clear either, is that as we function in a community of people who are following Christ, over time norms develop for the group. This is true of all groups at all levels. There is a "culture" that develops with common community expressions of how "we" express our love to Christ. This - given enough time - becomes religion. At its inception, religion is about finding ways to express love to and for God and to remind ourselves that we have not forgotten or lost perspective. However, I think that over time, we certainly have a tendency to focus on the religious practice itself, not the one we are supposed to be saying we love.
ReplyDeleteI guess the dichotomy in my mind is that anyone who says that they love Jesus but hate religious practice have to remove themselves from community to truly pull that reality off. But then there is the reality that we cannot truly experience Jesus outside of community no matter how hard we try. So, therein lies the paradox. Even is avoiding religiosity, we create another form of it.
Henri Nouwen makes a statement about this: "When we say, 'I love Jesus, but I hate the Church,' we end up losing not only the Church but Jesus too." I think that what I am trying to get to is at the heart of his statement as well.
And yes, the manure quote is quite appropriate!
Dear Aaron,
ReplyDeleteI have seen both Videos and it has let me honestly with questions. I have been hurt by people in a church and I have hurt people as well. We all fall short and can only grow. Where there is people there will be conflict. I believe conflict is to betrue true question. How can church resolve it better. We can use the bible to beat someone down or build them up. Jesus came and disliked the pharosis. They judge, people judge, sometimes a law can feel like a stab to the heart. It can be a arrow for the devil to use. Jesus alone saves and we just can grow in compassion and patience. The longer I have been a Christian the deeper the heart wounds. It has made me stronger, less judgemental and just want to be full of encouraging wisdom like you and your father and Jim P and Lydia. The thing I love is these mentors and more are REAL people and grow too. I have used the video I hate religion to get people to church. Lol We can really listen with a deep heart of compassion. Jesus is the one to trust. Not YouTube! :)
Aaron, I watched both and all I can say is it all about Him not me. we have to as we are watching these remember who the church is and it is isn't anyone denomination but the body of believers no matter where they go to worship. also we have to remember that it is the condition of the heart God sees and not what we see in other people or what they do. it is all our works coming out of our faith not our faith being generated by our works. Eph. 2:8-10. we had perfection and Adam and eve gave it back due to disobedience and we have been trying using law and man made rules and rituals to get it back when in truth God had already provided for it when we sent Jesus to die on the cross for our sins. Our perfection is waiting for us in heaven when we as believers will be reunited with the one who loves us so much he died so we could be free. A lot more could be said but it all boils down to it is all about Him and always will be.
ReplyDeleteReligious communities are important, in my opinion, to our walk with God and our faith in Jesus Christ. Where I found religion, or should I say the church, has gone wrong is when their focus is on judgment, self righteousness, and the desire to believe their body of believers is better than any other body of believers. No one has the right to judge except for God, if we are true Christians/true believers, we should be well aware of this. We should understand that we are just as broken as any other person. We must all show grace, love, and compassion to everyone of every walk, every belief, etc. The church helps to bring the broken to a place where they can follow Christ and God and gain greater understanding of the word. You were right, Aaron, that there even when trying to remove yourself from religion, you will inadvertently create another form...maybe that is the beauty of it.
ReplyDeleteThe question I see in this is twofold...can we have religion without Jesus and on the flip side of that is can we have Jesus without religion. And I can only say no to both...the natural outcome of worshipping Jesus is an overflow of the love he has shown us onto and into the people around us...whether they are believers or not. He designed, created us and uses us to spread his glory by changing us and reshaping us to be his tool. And tools need a place to be used, to spread the manure so to speak. I believe the problem comes when we start to worship the factory that made the tool rather than the creator who designed and decided its purpose. Because in the factory we have all these rules for safety and protection and forget the purpose behind the design and it becomes all about the system and the process and how to get the product out faster and cheaper and ultimately we forget the reason why the factory was set up in the first place...so that we can put quality tools to use to show how awesome the designer of those tools are so that we can build his kingdom. On the other hand...we need more than just one tool. People who use just 1 tool to try to accomplish many different tasks don't tend to get very far. Have you ever watched a mechanic try to fix a car with just a screwdriver...not good. Or a gardener try to tend a garden with just a hoe...it's not going to be a well tended garden. We need both...Our God is a god of relationship and order. We have relationship with Jesus, but then he gives us structure and order in that relationship for our good and protection so that when he chooses to use the tools that he has shaped, then they are well built and can withstand the abuse and hardship that will come their way.
ReplyDeleteThe previous post by Mike is correct. Jeff (the guy who made the video) is a good friend of mine, and his intention behind this video was simply to communicate that we are saved by Grace alone. Jeff is trying to speak against the thinking that Jesus+Works = salvation. Often times the church is known for being very judgmental, yet hypocritical, and this drives people away from Jesus, and ultimately the grace and salvation offered to them. Jeff wants to see the body and bride of Christ be real, genuine, and mutually understand their brokenness so that we don't condemn those who sin, but rather love them the way that Christ first loved us. In no way is he saying to break away from community (the church) which is why he says in his video very plainly that he loves the church, he simply wants to see it be more about grace and less about those legalistic man made additions to Christianity that drive millions of people away from a relationship with Christ.
ReplyDeleteHI Aaron, I saw your post a few weeks ago and at first, thought, ya I really agree with the first guy and then I watched the 2nd video and thought, "this guy's "rebuttal" doesn't even have anything to do with the other one", and I left it at that. But something's been bugging me since and so I thought I would share. I realized it depends on a persons paradigm or personal interpretation of "Religion". My interpretation, which I believe is similar, if not exactly as, the first guys, is "Religion is anything that takes the focus and credit away from God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit (because we can't have one with out the other) and puts it on man or rituals". It seems, however, that the 2nd guy seems to correlate religion with Community, which is foreign to me. Do I go to a building with other believers to fellowship and learn? Sure I do. Do I call it "church"? Sure I do. I know, however, that there is only one Church and it's the body of Christ, weather we call ourselves, Baptist, Catholic, Nazarene, Non Denominational or whatever, if you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died for our sins, you are part of 1 body alive in Christ through the Holy Spirit. The Church is not an organization, the church is a living Organism moving and working together to please the Father. I meet with a small body of believers in my town, we meet at a building that we call a church, but really it's just a grange that we rent for $30 a week and we recognize that God has given us instructions, through His Word, on how to gather, because He's not a God of confusion. Our group is small, about 30 people, but we love the Lord and we let Him work through us, so yes, we feed the poor, we help the needy including widows and children, we send money and people out to missions near and far, and we do all of this, not because it's a duty or part of a Religion but because we allow the H.S. to guide us and direct us, we do it out of love. Are we perfect people? Absolutely not. We are still just people and it's amazing what God can do with "just people" when we let Him. As for "rituals", there is nothing wrong with them, as long as they don't become the means rather then just something we do to remember or signify. We have communion, and we baptize but not because these things "get you to Heaven", but to help us remember the awesome Gift given and to be thankful. In my mind it's simple, these two videos are saying the same thing according to the authors perception. Thanks for posting, it's always good to go get the wheels turning! Carla Weber.
DeleteOk, so I watched both videos and read the replies. I'm not a theologian, and don't have big words to add to the discussion. I must be a true Libra (tho born on the cusp of Virgo, and don't really believe in that sort of thing), however, I think both men are saying the same thing. The first guy sees the hypocrisy of religion, is seeking to act on his salvation outside of "churchyness". The second guy believes that the religion of Jesus is in pouring ourselves out to others, the same way Jesus poured out his life to us. Both are men of conviction, working from salvation in serving others. It's the word "religion" that is the trap. There is nothing inherently wrong with religion. It's the living out of the faith that is important to both. One through the religion of Jesus (teachings of Jesus) and the other through the teachings of Jesus. Same thing. Both encouraging the same thing. We get caught up in words, when we should just be doing.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - thanks for your comments... very thought provoking. I wold love for you to unpack a couple of thoughts so that I can understand them better... "Both are men of conviction, working from salvation in serving others." Interesting word choices. Just spurred some thoughts in my mind. I would love to read your thoughts on that idea further.
ReplyDeleteSecond, "We get caught up in words, when we should just be doing." I think that perhaps the discussion goes a bit deeper than that. religion as a whole is the "doing" of our faith. It gives boundaries and ritual that allow us to feel secure in giving expression to our faith. I would love to read your further thoughts on that as well.
Good stuff. And I agree that while the messages are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the usefulness of the "religious institution," they are both looking for people who call themselves followers of Jesus in any form to walk out what they say they believe.
First, I am not(!) the anonymous('s) that posted to this thread earlier.
ReplyDeleteI am connected with God, accepting the death of Christ as my own and learning to hear and walk with God, only because I started seeking God on my own 25 years ago. The whole story is long and for another time, but the facts are that only as I let go of the immense baggage of a very thorough, very biblically based background and let God teach me personally, through His multiple books (bible, nature, human stories, direct communion), that I began a deeper walk with God.
I was sitting in the woods one day talking to God and he said to me "Jesus did not come to start a religion, but rather to tell us how the universe actually works." I will never forget the depth of the impression.
Now, I realize that me saying this, anonymously, is not convincing to anyone -- that is not my purpose. But the effect on me was to help me realize why it is that God guides me differently from the "precepts" and traditions of the churches that claim Christianity.
The human response to God is to create things like religions -- that is, in fact, even in the permissive will of God -- he can use those religions at times (he can use anything). But even Jesus alluded to the fact that when the full light broke upon the earth, those faulty channels known as religions and churches (that are, more and more, hurting His cause), would be done away. (Read the story of the woman at the well.) What is coming to the earth is beyond the pale -- the only preparation for it is to let go of those things that bind us to anything that comes from fear, from attempts to preserve ourselves by ourselves.
While communities are not in anyway condemned and are in fact critically important, Christianity as a practice and community has in fact become insular and an "us versus them" place. Where is the message of God, alongside of us? Where is the acknowledgement of the rent veil? Where is the love, written large, with no boundaries to impede the needy?
There is only one God, there is only one source of living truth. And that is not a religion, nor a tradition, nor a community of people ... not even the bible. It is the source of all the good in those things ... in communities, in the bible, in nature, in life.
This distinction is immensely important and absolutely crucial. Any other attitude is idolatry and idolatry robs us ... always. And what we see in religion and out of religion is characterized by a lack of freedom that this idolatry has inflicted upon us.
The true companion of God walks on this earth as in heaven. They are not beholden to any creed or tribe or community by anything other than a love for others and a joyful celebration of the twin tasks of connection (to others, God included) and creative expression (in a myriad ways, each unique and wonderful).
Thanks for the thoughts. And for hanging yourself out there in this process. And this will bring about a festive discussion I am sure. I have several questions about what you posted here. But rather than critique you, I would rather you critique me. So, I am going to give some presuppositions that I have concerning some of the topics you have written here, and I would like you to please critique me and help me see where I am wrong.
DeleteI believe that the church is God's idea... from Acts 2 forward this was His intent
I believe that community is not only critical, but it is why we are here. Loving God and Loving people is the greatest and highest achievement of mankind.
I do believe that religion in its purest sense is man trying to find expression for his faith in a higher power. But that does not negate the use or even need of religious practice. without boundaries, our expression to God becomes perverted. Boundaries are good and necessary in every facet of our lives - including expression of our faith in God. Those boundaries are found in Scripture and God does clearly communicate in the Bible His expectations for our conduct in day to day lives - both toward others and toward Him.
I believe that there is a duty in all of us to question, challenge and improve the status quo. We are responsible for our piece of history. We cannot be held responsible for whatever boxes we are handed by the previous generation - from religion to government to economy. But we use take responsibility to make it as good as we know for the generation that follows us. Running from it, or disconnecting from it does not ever help anyone. And I don't believe that to be loving our neighbors as ourselves at all.
Please respond.
Sorry, "But we *MUST take responsibility... not But we must use take responsibility
DeleteTypo!!!
From the 6/17/2012 anonymous: just a few comments ...
ReplyDeleteThe message of my original comment is not that community is not important, but rather that it has been hijacked in many, many, many cases. Those wishing to defend their community must step away enough to see this truth. And stepping away, they might find that the vision they gain will require a new community (new patches on old garments does not work). I claim that often, very different communities are called for, at least if it is to reflect the character of God in a full sense.
Instead of "love God and love your neighbor" (which I agree encompasses the infinite arena of man and God), I prefer saying that human needs are completely met by two activities: (a) creative productivity and exploration and (b) connection to others. The first activity is heavily weighted towards the connection with (ie loving) God, the second is (often, at first) weighted towards a connection with (loving) others. But both (a) and (b) are about loving God and loving others.
Freedom is the principal thing. That is what the great controversy between God and Satan is all about. Satan claims that true freedom is not compatible with, in harmony with the Laws of the universe and God claims that this is not true. Many cause and effect relationships central to this debate take centuries to unfold. Some of those are painful to watch. But through the death of Christ we can see (sometimes dimly) and through our walk with Him, we can know before we see.
And I am claiming that community, as usually practiced, has been deeply polluted by traditions and attitudes that work against the two laws of the universe.
Finally, To emphasize that I am not opposed to community, I want to state that I have always found God leading me to interactions with others. And since community is as truly present when there are two as when there is two hundred, this has often been in form of one person that God has led me to. But that has happened over and over. Did my solitary walks with God in nature (literal) remain the core of my relationship with him? Yes, but what drove this was in large part interactions with others (past and present).
Finally-Finally, I would add that I am cautious about how this rejection of error is done. In fact, that new patch principle tells us how to be careful. The act of starting something new is a compassionate act that says, "because I see a need that is at odds with what is, I will create change in a way that does not destroy the old -- by starting something new and separate/independent -- partly because the old is constructed of people who are being helped by the old and the 'first do no harm' principle dictates this, and partly because starting something new is the most efficient way for a new unfolding of creative vision."